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4G61 Race Motor in tubeframed Evo
http://www.4g61t.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21499		 Page 1 of 12
Author:  marck_c [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  4G61 Race Motor in tubeframed Evo
Greetings Gentlemen,

I road race an evo in Jamaica and have done so for 5+ years. For the 2008 season I am building a tube framed chassis car. Our rules dictate that the car must be at a minimum weight based on a formula using the engine displacement. In it's current 2 litre 4g63 form it must weight 2326 lbs. However a 1.6 liter engine would only have to weight 1885 lobs. A 400 lb difference. In road racing weight is everything. The current motor puts out 460 whp and 360 ft.lb tq. In order to maintain the same power to weight ratio with the lighter car I need the 1.6 to put out 370 whp and abput 340 ft.lb tq. Is this realistic??

I have several thousand dollars invested in the 2 liter, and the beaty of the 1.6 is that 95% of the parts are transferable. I beleive the pistons are the only major items that will require a change. Here's what I already have and plan to use:

FP3052 Turbo
Forrester Racing Heads Intake Manifold
DNPerformance Header
Ported & Polished 4G63 1st Gen head
Stainless Steel 1mm Oversize valves
Crower Valve Springs w/ Titanium Retainers
HKS 264/272 cams
Crower 1st Gen Rods
ARP Head Studs
Haltech E6S ECU
Moroso Aluminum Road Race Baffled Oil Sump
Davis Craig Electric Water Pump
Mitsubishi Stainless Steel Headgasket
ARP Main Studs
2.5 Inch Custom Intake Plumbing
Evolution 8 FMIC
3 Inch Stainless Downpipe
Tial 44mm Wastegate
VP C-16 Race Fuel

This is not a B/S post or build. I plan to rev it to 9000 rpm with the above mentioned figures. I would like some thoughts on the plans. I have read some discussion here about the suitability of the 1st Gen 4G63 Head regarding Compression Ratios, can anyone comment?
Author:  CaptainTonus [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Cool. Post up some pictures!
Author:  boostfreak [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
You could achive your HP and TRQ goals on a bone stock 1.6L, so anythign more that that is just playing it safe.


The answer to your question is yes.
Author:  marck_c [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
You could achive your HP and TRQ goals on a bone stock 1.6L, so anythign more that that is just playing it safe.


The answer to your question is yes.
Hate to be a doubting Thomas, but how is this possible. A 14b turbo cannot possibly flow enough air. Whilst the bottom end is probably rugged enough to do the job, I doubt the valvetrain can rev high enough to flow enough air, in stock form. Also I would think the boost would have to be very high +30lbs, to achieve this.
Author:  Crackerman [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
you said fp3052, there's the majic button right there
Author:  joggle [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Looking around the web the fp3052 can make 500 hp. So the 370 hp on the 1.6t should not be to hard. What will be hard is to get the turbo to spool at anywhere near the same RPM as on the 2.0L.

The "bone stock" is block and head not including turbo I believe. If I remember correctly someone on the board had atleast 375 hp with a smaller turbo then you have.
Author:  marck_c [ Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
The "bone stock" is block and head not including turbo I believe. If I remember correctly someone on the board had atleast 375 hp with a smaller turbo then you have.
Okay, so you mean bone stock internals. I still think I'll fortify everything inside to keep it durable. Out here we have to run for 20 minutes at a time. Do you remember the post with the 375 whp 1.6??
Author:  xlr8 [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:41 am ]
Post subject: 
How well do the scrutineers analyse the engine? Will they force an engine tear down if they suspect something?

If not then feel free to use some 40 over (4G63) 86.5mm pistons which will bring swept capacity up from 1596cc to 1762cc. You just need to make sure the piston installed height is correct since pin to crown distance is different between the 4G61 and 4G63 AFAIK.
Author:  marck_c [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
How well do the scrutineers analyse the engine? Will they force an engine tear down if they suspect something?
The competitors will definately protest and demand an inspection!!!
Author:  bfrontin [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:20 am ]
Post subject: 
that's some good stuff going on out there in Jamaica man.
I'm here in Trinidad and we are yet to get as organized as you'll when it comes to legal racing activities.

I'm doing over a rebuild of my 4g61T presently (the right way - blueprinting) but it will not be for all out racing.
The 4g63 head you intend to put on has a 47cc compression as opposed to the 4g61/4g67 which have 43cc. Ultimately, i've been told your compression will drop to below 8 (7.XX) which is not really the best thing. you'll have to crank boost up to compensate somewhat and i've been told off boost performance will suffer. you should look for the 4g67 head in particular. its a nice balance of port size (for flow) but retains the compression balance. Hyundai Elantra (92-95 models) carried the same head as well.

i am using the EVO 3 16g turbo and this spools nicely at late 3000s rpm range. Im sure the monster u are using will spool much later. the HKS cams will help with ur revving to some extent, but i think 9000k rpm is ambitious especially based on the gearbox. I'm curious - which box are u using? is it a custom built?

as for ur competitors protesting - the engine are so indentical, they'll probably try to convince you that it is still a 4g63. i suggest that you paint the engine # is BRIGHT YELLOW just to emphasize the bottom end!

and there are at least 2 of those Colorado guys (4g61tdragster and Hemi-Colt) on here who have pushed the 4g61T to ridiculous levels. I think 350whp+ was done, maybe even 400whp IIRC. and i dont think they had as much of these mods as you quoted - the engine was stock (as in internal parts never swapped out). you are basically adding gravy to the equation and once your tune is right, you should have no probs!
Author:  boostfreak [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:44 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
You could achive your HP and TRQ goals on a bone stock 1.6L, so anythign more that that is just playing it safe.


The answer to your question is yes.
Hate to be a doubting Thomas, but how is this possible. A 14b turbo cannot possibly flow enough air. Whilst the bottom end is probably rugged enough to do the job, I doubt the valvetrain can rev high enough to flow enough air, in stock form. Also I would think the boost would have to be very high +30lbs, to achieve this.

What does a 14b have to do with a stock bottom end? :-?
Author:  marck_c [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
that's some good stuff going on out there in Jamaica man.
I'm here in Trinidad and we are yet to get as organized as you'll when it comes to legal racing activities.

I'm doing over a rebuild of my 4g61T presently (the right way - blueprinting) but it will not be for all out racing.
The 4g63 head you intend to put on has a 47cc compression as opposed to the 4g61/4g67 which have 43cc. Ultimately, i've been told your compression will drop to below 8 (7.XX) which is not really the best thing. you'll have to crank boost up to compensate somewhat and i've been told off boost performance will suffer. you should look for the 4g67 head in particular. its a nice balance of port size (for flow) but retains the compression balance. Hyundai Elantra (92-95 models) carried the same head as well.
bfrontin, thanks you!! Finally some empirical data. I am running a TRE Modified Gearbox with an Evo 1 Final Drive and Quaife Front LSD, shifts fine up to 9000 rpm. I have to declare the engine size at scrutineering, otherwise everyone will cry foul when they see how low the car weighs. Regarding the compression ratio loss, I'm thinking of having sum custom high compression forged (9.5:1 ish) pistons made. When I called CP Pistons they said they were working on one from somone from Trinidad. Is that you??? Do great minds think alike??? :D
Author:  NVISABL [ Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 4G61 Rce Motor in tubeframed Evo
Many folks are doing these type numbers on very stock long blocks, Hell I produce 330 whp on a tired 270,000 mile motor with a 60-1 running 26psi on pump gas. Good luck keep us informed. Oh yeah I don't spin to 9000rpm but I do run it up to 7400 every day multiple times :)



DJ
www.etmotorsports.com
89 Mirage turbo (Nvisabl)
89 Dodge Colt Turbo (Casper)
91 Talon awd (goldie) slowest 578 whp car on the planet
Quote:
Greetings Gentlemen,

I road race an evo in Jamaica and have done so for 5+ years. For the 2008 season I am building a tube framed chassis car. Our rules dictate that the car must be at a minimum weight based on a formula using the engine displacement. In it's current 2 litre 4g63 form it must weight 2326 lbs. However a 1.6 liter engine would only have to weight 1885 lobs. A 400 lb difference. In road racing weight is everything. The current motor puts out 460 whp and 360 ft.lb tq. In order to maintain the same power to weight ratio with the lighter car I need the 1.6 to put out 370 whp and abput 340 ft.lb tq. Is this realistic??

I have several thousand dollars invested in the 2 liter, and the beaty of the 1.6 is that 95% of the parts are transferable. I beleive the pistons are the only major items that will require a change. Here's what I already have and plan to use:

FP3052 Turbo
Forrester Racing Heads Intake Manifold
DNPerformance Header
Ported & Polished 4G63 1st Gen head
Stainless Steel 1mm Oversize valves
Crower Valve Springs w/ Titanium Retainers
HKS 264/272 cams
Crower 1st Gen Rods
ARP Head Studs
Haltech E6S ECU
Moroso Aluminum Road Race Baffled Oil Sump
Davis Craig Electric Water Pump
Mitsubishi Stainless Steel Headgasket
ARP Main Studs
2.5 Inch Custom Intake Plumbing
Evolution 8 FMIC
3 Inch Stainless Downpipe
Tial 44mm Wastegate
VP C-16 Race Fuel

This is not a B/S post or build. I plan to rev it to 9000 rpm with the above mentioned figures. I would like some thoughts on the plans. I have read some discussion here about the suitability of the 1st Gen 4G63 Head regarding Compression Ratios, can anyone comment?
Author:  bfrontin [ Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:58 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
that's some good stuff going on out there in Jamaica man.
I'm here in Trinidad and we are yet to get as organized as you'll when it comes to legal racing activities.

I'm doing over a rebuild of my 4g61T presently (the right way - blueprinting) but it will not be for all out racing.
The 4g63 head you intend to put on has a 47cc compression as opposed to the 4g61/4g67 which have 43cc. Ultimately, i've been told your compression will drop to below 8 (7.XX) which is not really the best thing. you'll have to crank boost up to compensate somewhat and i've been told off boost performance will suffer. you should look for the 4g67 head in particular. its a nice balance of port size (for flow) but retains the compression balance. Hyundai Elantra (92-95 models) carried the same head as well.
bfrontin, thanks you!! Finally some empirical data. I am running a TRE Modified Gearbox with an Evo 1 Final Drive and Quaife Front LSD, shifts fine up to 9000 rpm. I have to declare the engine size at scrutineering, otherwise everyone will cry foul when they see how low the car weighs. Regarding the compression ratio loss, I'm thinking of having sum custom high compression forged (9.5:1 ish) pistons made. When I called CP Pistons they said they were working on one from somone from Trinidad. Is that you??? Do great minds think alike??? :D
that would be very interesting, cuz as far as i was aware, im probably the only 'driving' 61T out here. another buddy of mine is all setup, but he wants someone to check over his wiring before he fires up.
other than that, most cats here stick to the 63T, so maybe the CP people got mixed up. but then, 63T pistons are common place, and can be ordered right off the shelf, if these guys are building something custom, then maybe it is 61T pistons! who knows! but ill be VERY interested to kno who else got BRIGHT!

and there's loads of good stuff here on this site. these guys are really the authority when it comes to these motor types. ive gotten just about every issue ive had with my motor sorted out thru the info and great folks up on here.

but i have been a huge fan of the 61T over the 63T cuz its special to cut ass with 1600cc! im only at a modest 200 whp/180 trq with a f*cked motor and stock internals. probably u kno the name Ryan Garcia - he powered a old model (box) lancer (SKF sponsered) with a 4g63 to 7 secs on the quarter. he's doing the rebuild for me right now and we've targeted 260-280whp as my ceiling due to a crappy KM206 gearbox (non-turbo).

let me kno how this develops. very interested!
Author:  unior [ Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:18 am ]
Post subject: 
PICTURES we need PICS! :P
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