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 Post subject: -hard start issues?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 9:04 pm
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Location: Hagerstown, md
So got the 94 eagle summit started again after a few headaches...used starting fluid again of course, and i've got a few things on the way to try to help trouble shoot other issues with the hard starting, but also decided i'd like to go ahead and ditch the gas thats been in the tank for about 3 years (very little, was on E when parked) and the few gallons of 3-4 month old gas that i added to try and start it back then.

I've got to drop the tank eventually to install the 2g fuel pump anyway, and figured i might as well drain the gas thats in it beforehand if possible. is there a plug that can be removed? (no i havn't looked it over yet either, just was thinking about doing this on sunday, and wanted to have some sort of game plan for it.)

any info or advice with this is much appreciated.

a few things i'll be having sent to me in the next week are:

a new knock sensor (believe the one i have is possibly shot) -- will a bad knock sensor make it hard to start or not at all?

multiple intake pieces, including a new un-crushed bov (stock and the one i had that came with the car was already crushed)

already replaced throttle body gaskets, and with the few pieces of hard piping i'll have comming from a friend, i'll have a different tb elbow...i just replaced the gaskets on the tb where the tb meets the intake manifold, and the tb elbow meets the tb. if i swap elbows out, spose i'd have to replace the gasket for that again...but would the other need replaced as well?

egr blockoff plate is now installed, and blocked off all appropriate vac ports on the intake and below the thermostat housing.

if there is a place where intake leaks are notorious for being bad enough make a car not run without using starting fluid, by all means let me know so i can have another look at it to be very sure thats not where my issue is. any other sensors making the car not start, but will run on starting fluid? cam sensor is good, and if it wasnt i dont believe starting fluid would even matter.

Thanks again guys, gettin really close to finishing this, then having to do interrior stuff so let me know of ANYTHING that comes to mind.

Also, for those not sure, its got a 91 4g63t swapped into it, used mirageman's wiring harness adapter.


Ben


Last edited by ben4g63t1 on Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:48 pm 
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Location: Stantonsburg, NC
There is a drain bolt with a 12mm head on the passengers side of the bottom of the tank. I don't think the knock sensor would cause the problem you're describing.

Have you disconnected the fuel feed line and put power to the pump to make sure it's getting gas? Sounds like the fuel pump isn't pumping fuel up to the rail. There is a test connector on the dsm harness but I'd have to look through the manual for the correct one since there are a few.

_________________
89 2 Door Montero V6/Manual
95 Eagle Summit DL coupe
15 Mitsubishi Mirage ES hatch


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:08 am 
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The happy administrator
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Location: Wisconsin
Test fuel pressure and replace your coolant temp sensor.

_________________
Had a:
1991 Eagle Summit ES Hatchback - 4g15 12v 5spd
1991 Dodge Colt -4g15 12v 4spd
Have a:
1978 Oldsmobile Cutlass - 468BBO TH350
Round 3:
1990 Dodge Colt-4G63T 5spd


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:20 pm 
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Location: Hagerstown, md
ok so it did this in the car i pulled the motor from, and in the car i put it in. the coolant temp sensor...that the one in the radiator? or the one in the thermostat housing? I've heard of that sensor being enough to mess with it before, but would like to be sure that the one in the radiator really only lets the fan cut on and the one in the thermostat housing is the one the ecu reads. Also if the ecu reads the one in the thermostat housing, is there anyway to by-pass it to check and make sure its the problem? I havnt bought a new one before, but i want to say that in the past i've swapped it out with a couple of junk yard sensors...I know they could have been bad, but i've used like 3...and wouldnt think all 3 would be bad.

Swapped out the fuel pressure regulator with one that i had mirageman send me a while back...actually just got another one being sent to me to be sure its not the problem as well...the fuel pump is definately cutting on as i've had to dump fuel from the fuel rail when i did the head gasket a month or so ago, but the gas is probably crap and so i'll be working on ditching whats in the tank and getting new.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:31 pm 
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Location: Hagerstown, md
Also a little strange question. If the car has no coolant at all, would it also have symptoms like this? currently i didnt add any coolant because i wanted to make sure i solved the oil/coolant mixing problem with the new oil cooler, and headgasket replaced. Planning on getting some coolant tomorrow and seeing what happens now that i know the oil is at the correct lvl and holding there..no leaks and no dumping it to the radiator.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:25 am 
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Nope, an engine will fire right up and run normal without coolant. I'm sure you already know its not wise to let it run long though.

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89 2 Door Montero V6/Manual
95 Eagle Summit DL coupe
15 Mitsubishi Mirage ES hatch


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:00 am 
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Rad sensor is for the fans.
Thermostat housing is for the dash cluster temp gauge (single prong sensor) and the ECU (double prong sensor).

Wiring to the sensors is famous for getting brittle on the top mount sensor (thermo housing) and they break, go open, see increased resistance from corrosion.

This makes the car go into cold start mode in most cases, thinking it's -40C. This will flood the plugs quickly and cause a no start for sure. Cold fuel maps = not copesetic with warm ambient temps!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:27 pm 
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Location: Hagerstown, md
Yeh, when i've started the car I never let it run for longer than like 30 seconds at a time, exhaust manifold never even got hot enough to give me a blister.

I actually snagged a second plug for the thermostat housing sensor a while back, and I think i'll go ahead and work on snipping the current one off and putting the other one on as it is just as u described...the wires near the plug are showing and seem to be pretty stiff, so I wouldnt be suprised if that was the problem right along as well. I've also located the 12mm plug, havn't drained it yet because i'm trying to do so many things at once LOL. I just finished putting the dash back together completely and installed the battery tray under the hood since jumping the car and holding a battery at the same time was a lil risky LOL.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:24 am 
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Since it was so nice and warm out today, I took the time to go ahead and drop the tank and install a 2g tsi fuel pump/drain the old gas, which looked "rusty". It wasn't rust though...just discolored from being old as i expected...

Nice and empty tank with the correct pump installed makes me feel alot better. After seeing the stock 1.8 pump and the 2g tsi pump, I was suprised how similar they were. I know everyone said it would be pretty much bolt on, but I wasnt expecting it to be so easily done...almost identical pumps, just the tsi one looks a little bigger.

I did use the drain plug after I dropped the tank to allow it to lean all the way to the side which made it alot easier to completely empty it.

Just figured i'd go ahead and update the progress. Thanks for all the info and replies as well!

Ben


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:56 am 
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CSM Junkie

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Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Quote:
Rad sensor is for the fans.
Thermostat housing is for the dash cluster temp gauge (single prong sensor) and the ECU (double prong sensor).

Wiring to the sensors is famous for getting brittle on the top mount sensor (thermo housing) and they break, go open, see increased resistance from corrosion.

This makes the car go into cold start mode in most cases, thinking it's -40C. This will flood the plugs quickly and cause a no start for sure. Cold fuel maps = not copesetic with warm ambient temps!
i had a few dsm where the temp sensor wires fell off, old brittle wires, and the one i had a logger and it said the engine was hot, before i would even cold stsrt it ,so opposite pf what flying eagle said. open wires, it assumes the engine is warm, thus hard to start, once it starts it runs good. thats the double prong sensor.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:22 am 
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Location: Hagerstown, md
Hi all, long time no see, but its starting to get warm and i'm ready to find this problem and fix it.

So I've got a little progress to report. I ordered some things/installed them...another uncrushed bov, replaced some rubber hose with hard pipe. Put a new throttle body gasket on re-wired the cam sensor, added fresh fuel, re-wired another plug for the coolant temp sensor, pulled a fuel line off which squirted everywhere from pressure, changed the mass air flow sensor out with a different one, changed the cam sensor out with a different one.

A few days ago it got up to about 70 degrees, so decided i'd throw some fresh gas in the empty tank and start messin around with it. After adding the gas i just hopped in and cranked the motor a few turns when it fired up, ran for like 1-3 seconds about 5 times on 5 tries, and then nothing. Without removing the intake piping and spraying starter fluid near the intake it was enough to get it to start again and run for a few seconds longer, did this once to see if it would be enough to get it running/stay running.

On the starting fluid if I try to give it gas it immediately dies. Pumping the gas without starting fluid has no effect, or just makes it worse to try starting.

Today it was about 40 degrees and I added some more fuel to make the gas light go off, and swapped out the cam sensor with another one laying around and with the original cam sensor and the one I put on I had the same results...except today i could only get it to sputter without starting. It basicly like fires off and then i get nothing. turn the key off wait a second or two try it again and the same. Did this like 4 times before it didnt do anything. I know I read somewhere that only a few wires are really necessary to make the car run, so I'm now to the point of trying to track that info down and try to get some more ideas from you guys.

All of this stuff was the same in the donor car as well, so for it to do it in the summit the exact same way, I would have to think its down to an engine issue, sensor, or wiring issue. Its in like perfect time as well so i know for sure thats not the problem. When the motor runs, it runs and sounds fantastic, running on starting fluid means its obviously not a spark problem. A few years ago the ECU was put into friends car and it worked perfectly (motor was in the donor car still with these same issues going on.)

I've searched and searched i get the same crap...coolant temp sensor etc. So It may be time to just run a complete wire from ecu to the temp sensor as well.

I know this is getting long and repetative so to sum it up, Hit me with anything you got for an idea or suggestion. For instance, if this was your car what would you do next?

A few things i've never changed out are, fuel injectors, and fuel rail....heh havnt found any for the right price and most of the other stuff i've changed out i bought in bulk 2 cam sensors, maf sensor fuel pressure regulators mpi relays i've swapped many times and have like 5 sitting here as well.

Ah well I'm off to bed after all this writing, hopefully someone reads through it LOL.

Thanks in advance for any help or ideas.

Ben


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:31 pm 
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Have you had eyes on the fuel filter sock?

What did the fuel look and smell like?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:55 pm 
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Location: Hagerstown, md
This engine did the exact same thing in the donor car. I switched the fuel pump out with a 2g fuel pump i bought from tkrperfromance for the swap. Does the same thing...I did manage to snap a video which i will be uploading later on if i can figure out how to do all that :) so i'll keep you posted...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:09 am 
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hmm so i havnt bothered posting the vid yet, since for some reason there is no sound after i get it off my phone...but there is definately sound when i play it from my phone...i'll keep trying though


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 Post subject: Re: -hard start issues?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:38 am 
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Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 9:04 pm
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Location: Hagerstown, md
Hmm well heres the vid, will see if this will help with any ideas...keep in mind there is no exhaust on the car other than what u see.

Image


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