4g61t.org

Al I am saying is, dont expect to run big numbers right off, it takes alot of work and trial and error to make a car go fast, secondly, don't belive everything thye internet has to offer, dsm tuners is by no means a performance bible.

400 horsepower on an afc is realy pushin it, engine managment is the way to go, the aem is a pain in the ass to tune, take a look at haltech, the e6k or its new replacement the e6x

Sorry for being a bitch, It's just agravating for me to hear people say that they are going to have xxx horsepower and xxx times just by bolting parts together (by the way I work in a shop) And I have been working on dsm's every day now for close to 4 years.

It would be my pleaasure to help out, just dont set the bar to high on a factory motor, my best is 420whp factory block, but hks cams.... DO not atemp to use nos at any more than 18-20 psi on unforged pistons. or things will go BOOM! And even then keep the shot real small, the advantage of nos in a trubo car is not the added hp, it is the incredibly cool dense chage of air it provides.

uhhh, I dont know if you have any experience with the AEM ECU, but its plug and play, and with wideband it tunes the fuel curves itself.... If you actually have experience with it and this is not true, please tell me.....

secondly, I didnt say "I'll throw these parts together and run these times". I said that this was a guideline for me to follow, not an exact plan. if it was exact I would have all other kinds of shit in there and the list would be miles long. I said that I expected those times, not that I would run them.

oh yeah, and I think that somewhere along there I said I wanted to run the 64 hks cams. and I also showed in my revised plan the complete lack of nitrous, and if a kit comes along for the right price, I'll just switch my shit up.

and I have a hard time believing you actually work in a shop because of this statement:

the advantage of nos in a trubo car is not the added hp, it is the incredibly cool dense chage of air it provides.

why?
because the cooling, and increased amount of oxygen, is what adds HP. by having more oxygen you can put in more fuel safely, and therefore make more HP. if all it did was cool the intake charge and prevent ping, people would be saying fruit and banana nitrous, I'll just use water.

What he (my roomate) means is that the AEM has issues with tuneability for the novice standalone user. It is plug and play in the aspect that it just clips into the standard harness, but when they say that the wideband does all the work, they are kinda talking out of their asses. The shop he works for has installed a few AEM systems and it is not that easy, otherwise everyone would be doing it. Think that wideband o2 can help you tune your idle fuel mixtures? How about your part throttle? What happens when one injector starts to die and the fueling goes to shit...will the wideband compensate? If it does, then again..what happens to that lean cylinder? Its called research, and yes I've done it. I read the AEM forum as well as the Haltech (my roomate's setup) and SDS forums (SDS being my choice of system for my personal cars, due to its simplicity and ease of tuning).

Do you understand what nitrous into the intake charge does? What about water injection? Well, here is some schooling for you:

1) Nitrous into the intake air charge drops the density of the incoming air by super chilling it. This helps the mixture atomize and keeps it all nice and dense to aid in power creation. Cooler intake temps means more power...not less ping. More power tends to CREATE ping.

2) Water injection is NOT used to chill the intake air, it is used to kill off hotspots in the combustion chamber to reduce detonation. THIS is what causes ping (among other things)


There, see how easy that was! .

Now as for your claim that he does not work in a shop...well, I can vouch for his employment as if he was not working there, I would not get any rent money from him...which I do . The shop colt they built ran, in untuned format, the ET listed in his sig (which I cannot remember right now ). I think he has some small clue as to what to do in regards to 4g63T upgrades.

Now as for your other options....if you seriously expect to run the times you want, then you had damn well better do it right the first time. Do not mess around with AFCs or junk like that. Do the standalone, you will not regret it. Once you start working with it, you will never go back to the old way .

Oh yeah, with the proper ECU and injector setup, you do not need the adjustible FPR....in fact it will make life difficult for you. With the outputs you want, you are going to need a BIIIIIIIIT more fuel control than just an FPR or AFC.

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Early 2000's: 1992 Summit sedan - 14.1 @ 100.9mph w/ 155/80 13s
2012: 1989 Dodge Colt GT Turbo - 14.9 @ 100mph, 10psi/s16G

awesome post except for that part

the nitrous works because it has more oxygen in it than ambient air does. it does cool the intake charge, but that is not the main advantage of it. I am 99.9% sure of this point.

water injection IS used to chill the intake air. when the water is atomized it cools the air a GREAT deal. so it does the same thing you said it does, just in a diffrent way than you think. once again, I am 99.9% sure of this.

You are correct in those points...but why do you think they use nitrous to begin with? Because it is a great accellerant, and will make a nice big boom when ignited, but it will not ignite on its own...no matter what F&F says. You want to run a 50 shot into your 20psi stock bottom ended monster? Go right ahead...I will be the first to say I told you so. A small shot will chill the intake air just nicely, without adding too much to the combustion in the cylinder, keeping everything together. Nitrous is a liquid, and will remain a liquid in an oxygen free environment, turning into a vapor only with exposure to oxygen...which absorbs a TON of heat upon release. It does not create cold, the chemical reaction absorbs heat when it is let out into the atmosphere. Thus the super chilling effect on the intake air. Sure it also works with an equal shot of fuel in a fogger to create a bunch of extra power, but why not exploit its chemical properties in a different, more efficient, way?

I do not doubt that water will chill the intake air, but why exactly do you think that it prevents detonation? Certainly not by making more power. The atomized air/water spreads out in the cylinder, absorbing and cooling the hotspots caused by detonation and combustion. This in effect reduces pinging, not because of the chilling effect it has on intake air. You tell me it works, and I tell you why...seems to be the way we are going .

Just don't make me at ya one day. I'd hate to hear that this street-tired beast with 400whp on a stock bottom end that runs low 11's broke or something catastrophic like that. Gee, sounds kinda far-fetched when you see it typed out like that.......

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Early 2000's: 1992 Summit sedan - 14.1 @ 100.9mph w/ 155/80 13s
2012: 1989 Dodge Colt GT Turbo - 14.9 @ 100mph, 10psi/s16G

You know thats what I love about stock motors your run the stinking piss out of them and then you buy another one when it blows for 200 bucks. When the NITROUS BOOM happens go buy you another block and put it in. Man if you ain't breaking shit you ain't pushing your car hard enough. A friend of mine has a Honda CRX weighing in at 2200 lbs and he dynoed 235 to the wheels. When he took his car to the track for the first time he ended up pulling a 12.1 on his first time on slicks if he could have made a few more runs I'm sure he could have gotten into the 11s. I'm sure if you put a big16g in your car with very few other things upgraded fuel pump, stock injectors, maybe a FMIC and the big 16 on around 18 PSI with full advance on your timing. You will break into the 11's. If you make sure your motor is healthy and in good running order. I really don't see the need for all that other stuff unless your wanting to go into the 10's. When and if you do put all that other stuff onto your car your only disadvantage is going to be traction. I say you put most of your money into your suspension setup because you are going to need it. I can spin my tires in first gear pretty good with my big 16g

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1990 mirage 4g63t powered. I need a gas tank. HA HA

You wont be getting into anyones low 11's without slicks......

MAYBE with ALOT of tuning......



Goodluck


Geoff

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Geoff

89 Colt Turbo
92 GVR4 254/1000 Kensington Gray

zspturbo........

Please do a little more research into getting into the 11's..........
We all would like to think that C/M's are ALOT lighter than DSM's but they are NOT.

There HAS to be major internal engine and SUSPENSION WORK performed on your car to make it a consistant and SAFE 10/11 second car,

Here's more of what you'll be looking at to get it into the low #s.....


SLICKS or "DOT Slicks" Yokohama ADVANS come to mind
KYB/AGX with GC coilovers.
1290cc or bigger FMIC [side mount will not do SQUAT]
A BUILT TRANNY !!!!!!
20G or larger internally or externally gated turbo
660 or larger injectors
2G ported manifold
hogged out o2 sensor housing with atmosperic dump if you go with a internally gated turbo
For extewrnally gated turbo 3in D/P "shory" that dumps after front tire.
2G MAF/or MAFT/or VPC/ combined with a S-AFC, and laptop for TUNING
EGT
30-0-30 Boost gauge
2600 lb press plate clutch assembly.

You NEED to do more research pal. You idea is an age old concept.
How can I get doen the 1/4 mi for cheap and drive it daily.
Most 10/11 sec FWDers arent daily drivers. however if you can pull it off,
god bless you

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Geoff

89 Colt Turbo
92 GVR4 254/1000 Kensington Gray

You NEED to do more research pal. You idea is an age old concept.
How can I get doen the 1/4 mi for cheap and drive it daily.
Most 10/11 sec FWDers arent daily drivers. however if you can pull it off,
god bless you


Lol.. i guess when you realize your spending countless hours fixing and trying to maintain a 10/low 11sec car, you realize the "street Car" aspect is a losing battle. Not to mention, 400 or more WHP in a FWD car on radials is a joke.


My opinion of a easy low 11sec setup.


6bolt 4G63 turbo motor (stock internals)
ARP head studs
50trim or larger turbo w/wastegate etc
C-16/28-30psi
FMIC/short route piping( no Leaks!)
Decent BOV, no stock 1G stuff
AFC /2G MAF
720s or bigger
decent clutch
LSD or welded diff
(a good shifting) 4g63 trans
24.5 slicks or bigger
1.6t axles
Shocks and springs
a good alignment
255HP pump or better

now the stuff to race legally
6point roll bar/cage
SFI approved Scattershield
SFI approved fire jacket
SN 95 approved Helmet
Extended lug studs for the slicks


that should get you in the mid to low 11s pretty easy with a decent driver and good tuning.

Add cams a better fuel pump/FPR and a better engine management system and you should have 10s easy.

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98 Eclipse GSX 10.83@131
90 Eagle Talon TSI (FWD) 13.1 @111
91 Colt 10.5@140

one thing about the nitrous..nitrous doesnt stay in a liquid state because its not exposed to oxygen..hell, nitrous is made partly up of oxygen! It remains in a liquid state because it is under extreme pressure, and when it is released it changes into a gaseous state, absorbign a lot of heat in the air around it. Nitrous only undergoes chemical change once inside the motor, when it breaks down and frees the oxygen molecules so they can mix with the gas and burn. You can only have soo much cooling effect, even with water injection, because you start to run into problems with fuel not staying in suspension because the air is too cold (fuel mist doesnt mix properly with the air because the air is too dense and not enough space for fuel molecules to fit)

Water injection serves to absorb the heat (running too tiny of an intercooler or no intercooler at all). It has an enormous latency, and can absorb a pretty dam large amount of heat. It more or less enables you to squeeze a few more pounds of boost on top of the motor because it cools hotspots in the motor and steam cleans your internals, as carbon deposits on pistons or valves can actually contribute to detontation.

A side mount intercooler will work for 12s in our cars, as i have seen dsms go into the 11s with a stock sidemount. granted there are things to keep the air cool like the ntercooler sprayer or water injection, but its been done.

Most people think a lot of boost is needed to get down the track in short order, but if your suspension is set up right and your car is tuned, and not just throwing a big pile of boost at the motor and expecting it to just hold together, then you could actually be faster with less boost.....but there is one thing that is the biggest variable of them all:


The Driver.


You are the one that is going to affect how your car runs. how you shift, how you launch the car are what can make or break your run.

And I dont know why everyone is breakin chops here..cuse this whole post was titled lets bench race. LOL. Im goin 12s, 11s with a 1.6/2.0 head, big 16, slicks and hopefully koni struts if i can ever save that kind of money. and I will do it on pump gas too. none of this fancy leaded stuff (although it does smell really good and make me pee a lot )

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89 Colt GL, no power anything, $10K invested and shes still not running yet.

85.5 Porsche 944, Gaurds Red, 70K original miles

"I'm Rick James, bitch."