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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:14 am 
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Spends Too Much Time Under The Hood
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Has anyone ran into problems from using a DSM intermediate axle shaft with a 4g61 block and tranny? Here's why I ask. I'm having problems with my driver side axle setup and I'm trying to figure out why. Here's the timetable.

Starting out with 4g61 and stock km210 trans, also stock CSM intermediate axle shaft (bracket facing towards driver side)
2 July 2012, installed new Rock Auto driver side CV axle onto stock intermediate axle shaft (243k miles)
6 Nov 2012, 5th gear nut loose, pops out of gear, tightened nut but still pops out, trans needs rebuilt (251k miles)
1 Dec 2012, installed DSM FWD tranny and JayRacing alt relocate kit. (251k miles) The JayRacing alt relocation kit doesn't work with the CSM intermediate axle shaft bracket that faces towards driver side. So I kept my CSM intermediate shaft but swapped the bearing/bracket with a 1G DSM bracket assy. This was at 251k miles.
4 April 2013, the car has 260k miles and I notice a noise that is speed related, not engine or rpm related. Its coming from the driver side front. I'm thinking wheel bearing, CV axle joint or that bearing/bracket assy on the interm shaft. The noise does NOT change when side loading like swerving or taking corners hard left or right. That makes me think the wheel bearing is ok. Fast forward to today.

I got the km210 rebuilt (factory rebuild nothing fancy except a Phantom Grip). I install the km210 and the axle noise is still there, so it wasn't the differential in the DSM tranny. That leaves the CV axle or the bracket/bearing assy. I inspected both while I had the tranny out and the bracket/bearing spins freely and doesn't make any noise at all. Maybe there is more stress on it when installed but it seems fine when removed. Same for the CV joints, they seem fine and no sign of grease leakage. (CV axle is only 1yr old and has 20k miles on it)

Here's what I noticed when putting the tranny and axle back in the car. When you put eh intermediate shaft into the diff in the tranny, there is a little bit of play up and down even with it splined all the way in. That's normal. However, in order to get the holes to line up in the DSM bearing/bracket assy with the block I have to let the interm shaft sag all the way down and then actually pull real slightly down even more (not hard, just slight down pressure) to get the bolts to go into the threads in the block. So this seems to me that the DSM bracket puts the interm shaft slightly lower than the CSM bracket assy does and could be just enough to cause a problem.

Which leads me back to the noise. Now I believe the noise could either be the bearing in that DSM interm shaft bracket assy when its under slight pressure installed, or maybe having the interm axle shaft slightly pushed downwards is putting stress on the differential in the tranny and its making the noise and the sound just travels down the interm shaft to the driver side.

Long story but I like providing details. :D Sorry. An ideas? I'm going to try and find a CSM intermediate axle shaft that I can swap back into the car as see if it relieves some stress from binding and makes the noise go away. Of course I'll have to grind on the alt relocation kit bracket too since it doesn't work with the CSM bracket. :cry: Its always something isn't it? :(

_________________
'89 Colt GT w/bigger than stock turbo
'91 Talon AWD w/bigger than stock turbo
'05 Dodge diesel w/bigger than stock turbo


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:23 am 
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Spends Too Much Time Under The Hood
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I noticed one other detail I didn't mention. It's not the brakes either. The noise doesn't change whether I ride the brakes or not and the brakes don't pulse or seem abnormal at all.

The noise is not a constant noise like a grinding, it has a frequency that is vehicle speed related. Sort of a whump whump whump whump that starts slow around 20mph and increases frequency as speed goes up, probably about 5 or 6 "whumps" per second at 60mph or so.

_________________
'89 Colt GT w/bigger than stock turbo
'91 Talon AWD w/bigger than stock turbo
'05 Dodge diesel w/bigger than stock turbo


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:07 pm 
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Tires maybe ?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:11 pm 
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just to rule it out..have the charging system checked.. if the alt is going out then when driving /under load u will hear the bearings in it.. and not under load when u free rev it you wont hear it... just a option to rule it out..

only other suggestion is move the alt back up front if u can..and put the stock bracket back on the inter..shaft and see if it lines up better..or sound goes away.. I know its a pain to do this..but its all about process of elimination on things like this..





Steve

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Steve 89 colt 2.3 stroker stock top end. evo3@20 psi 13.489@99.30mph 3/10 2012
On drag radials.auto trans.launching @ 5 psi and no traction thru 2nd.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:45 pm 
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Take the belt off and take it around the block, won't hurt anything and it'll rule out accessories. Rotate the front tires to the back to eliminate tire noise. While the tires are off, spin the drivetrain components and listen/feel for grinds. Double check that your calipers aren't sticking, pull the caliper and pads, cap off the master cylinder reservoir, stick the piston pusher in and crank it down, should slide in super easy. Make sure the dust shields aren't contacting the rotor, had that happen a few times. Pick up a dsm intermediate shaft and swap it in, should be a direct replacement. Another thing is to make sure you can freely spin the intermediate shaft once it's bolted down.

_________________
Had a:
1991 Eagle Summit ES Hatchback - 4g15 12v 5spd
1991 Dodge Colt -4g15 12v 4spd
Have a:
1978 Oldsmobile Cutlass - 468BBO TH350
Round 3:
1990 Dodge Colt-4G63T 5spd


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:39 pm 
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I rotated the tires already and even ran the car up to 60mph on jack stands. I also shut the engine off on the highway and the sound doesn't change. It's definitely drivetrain. I don't have the CSM bracket anymore since I was sure the DSM one would work. I think what I'll do is slot the holes in the bracket so I can push it up and then tighten it that way. This way I don't have to grind on the Jay Racing alt bracket.

_________________
'89 Colt GT w/bigger than stock turbo
'91 Talon AWD w/bigger than stock turbo
'05 Dodge diesel w/bigger than stock turbo


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:18 pm 
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For comparison I pulled the factory axle and intermediate shaft off my '91 AWD Talon and '89 Colt GT. I was quite surprised how much beefier the CSM parts are than the DSM parts. On the right is the factory CSM intermediate shaft (with DSM bearing/bracket) and a Rock Auto aftermarket cv axle for the Colt. The one on the left is the factory DSM axle and shaft.

Image

_________________
'89 Colt GT w/bigger than stock turbo
'91 Talon AWD w/bigger than stock turbo
'05 Dodge diesel w/bigger than stock turbo


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:22 pm 
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The CSM intermediate shaft dwarfs the DSM one. Odd.

Image

The Rock Auto CSM axle is a lot beefier than the DSM axle too.

Image

_________________
'89 Colt GT w/bigger than stock turbo
'91 Talon AWD w/bigger than stock turbo
'05 Dodge diesel w/bigger than stock turbo


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:55 pm 
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Shawn J get a caliper on the input shaft, seal size, intermediate shaft length, cv axle length, and so on. I am having some major problems also. I have a 4g63 92 colt with a f5m33 trans.
Here is what I have found.

So I cant buy a 89 colt turbo midshaft (shaft that comes out of driver side trans and bolts to the block via bearing)
I can buy the 89 colt turbo cv axles without the Midshaft mentioned above
I have a 91-94 dsm awd Midshaft. I have a 91-94 dsm awd driver side cv axle.
I have a 89 colt gt NON TURBO driver side cv axle (long cv axle like a fwd dsm but different length than a fwd dsm)
I have a 90 Turbo DsM Fwd driver side cv axle.
I can also buy a drive side non turbo 89 colt gt cv axle also

NEED HELP I am also posting for my situation as you have a 4g61 and both trans

_________________
92 Colt GT 4G63t
92 Summit TSI AWD 4G63t Auto
92 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Auto DRag CaR
5 X 90 Talon TSI
90 GSX
99 GSX..........31 Dodge 4dr Rat Rod, 67 Catalina, 92 3kgt vr4, 83 Civic,4 00 F-350, 01 Chevy 2500HD
3 KIDS, FUTURE FIANCE, AND CAR ADDICTION


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:47 pm 
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Quote:
The CSM intermediate shaft dwarfs the DSM one. Odd.

Image

The Rock Auto CSM axle is a lot beefier than the DSM axle too.

Image
FWD axles should be beefier, in one train of thought I had, because they will take all or half the torque of the transmission output, multiplied from what the motor is putting out. The AWD's split the torque front to back, and at best are giving half to the front and half to the back IIRC, under certain conditions. I guess a large portion could get split front or rear if both front or rear wheels were to loose traction, but I bet there is more stress with factory rubber mounts, READ wheel hop with the FWD models also.
Factory FWD Mirage/Colt turbo axles or aftermarket replacement FWD turbo Mirage/Colt axles are a sure bet. I just pulled apart my output/axle seals from the F5M33 FWD transmission I will be installing, with a Quaife 25 spline (AWD bearing equipped diff).


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:56 am 
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Spends Too Much Time Under The Hood
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Location: Evansville, IN
Do you need an intermediate shaft bearing for the colt intermediate shaft? I need a csm intermediate shaft (I think cause I have not tried the DSM intermediate shaft) and the parts I order were suppose to be the intermediate shaft bearing and bracket for a csm. All I got was a rebuild for the bearing it new seal, c clip, and bearing. The lady got mixed up with what was coming in. I have already paid for it so if you need it let me know cause I could work out a deal with you.

_________________
92 Colt GT 4G63t
92 Summit TSI AWD 4G63t Auto
92 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Auto DRag CaR
5 X 90 Talon TSI
90 GSX
99 GSX..........31 Dodge 4dr Rat Rod, 67 Catalina, 92 3kgt vr4, 83 Civic,4 00 F-350, 01 Chevy 2500HD
3 KIDS, FUTURE FIANCE, AND CAR ADDICTION


Last edited by DSMERwCOLT on Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:52 pm 
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You tested your dsm's intermediate shaft in the csm or vise versa? Since you had both at the same time.

_________________
05 wrx wagon
99 Benz ML 320
91 eagle summit swapped - 6/4 bolt combo
94 Audi s4 - sold
88 Eagle Vista Turbo LX sedan, RIP


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:59 pm 
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Location: Evansville, IN
J2dapo are you asking me or Shawn?
I don't have a csm intermediate shaft.
I have a dsm intermediate shaft manual, dsm outer dr cv axle, and new csm outer dr cv axle. I am trying all the fitment up tomorrow morning. I will post my results Sunday or Monday. If I post on Saturday I must be ticked off lol

_________________
92 Colt GT 4G63t
92 Summit TSI AWD 4G63t Auto
92 Eagle Talon TSI AWD Auto DRag CaR
5 X 90 Talon TSI
90 GSX
99 GSX..........31 Dodge 4dr Rat Rod, 67 Catalina, 92 3kgt vr4, 83 Civic,4 00 F-350, 01 Chevy 2500HD
3 KIDS, FUTURE FIANCE, AND CAR ADDICTION


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:59 pm 
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Location: Indianapolis
give us update on this one as I am due to replace mine and looking for a better option on this part.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:16 am 
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The happy administrator
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I've used BOTH intermediate shafts with carquest axles. They both worked the same, ran the same, bolted on the same, etc etc. There was no difference whatsoever as far as driving the car. The only reason I'm no longer running the awd dsm shaft is that my axle popped off and chewed the splines. SOME people have had to change seals/glued seals/etc, I didn't. I put a new (dsm) seal in the f5m33 and never had issues with either.

Quote:
Shawn J get a caliper on the input shaft, seal size, intermediate shaft length, cv axle length, and so on. I am having some major problems also. I have a 4g63 92 colt with a f5m33 trans.
Here is what I have found.

So I cant buy a 89 colt turbo midshaft (shaft that comes out of driver side trans and bolts to the block via bearing) Doesn't surprise me, they only made about 1500 of them unless you get one from australia.
I can buy the 89 colt turbo cv axles without the Midshaft mentioned above Get the carquest turbo mirage axles.
I have a 91-94 dsm awd Midshaft. I have a 91-94 dsm awd driver side cv axle. The awd dsm intermediate will work fine.
I have a 89 colt gt NON TURBO driver side cv axle (long cv axle like a fwd dsm but different length than a fwd dsm) Will bind if you use the long axle.
I have a 90 Turbo DsM Fwd driver side cv axle.Not the right length, will cause issues.
I can also buy a drive side non turbo 89 colt gt cv axle also Don't, waste of money.

NEED HELP I am also posting for my situation as you have a 4g61 and both trans

Go to carquest, buy the axles for a '88 (that's what it will come up under) turbo mirage. Drivers side and pass side. Use an awd dsm midshaft. Make sure the axle seal is snug on the intermediate axle where it goes into the trans. If you still have an issue, it's somewhere else, not the axles/intermediate.

Protip: Once you bolt down the intermediate shaft, spin it by hand. If it binds, shim it out with hardened washers, one (on each bolt) at a time, until it doesn't. Use grade 8 bolts and plenty of loctite.

_________________
Had a:
1991 Eagle Summit ES Hatchback - 4g15 12v 5spd
1991 Dodge Colt -4g15 12v 4spd
Have a:
1978 Oldsmobile Cutlass - 468BBO TH350
Round 3:
1990 Dodge Colt-4G63T 5spd


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