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Performed 1.8L full setup swap on 1.5L crazy ping ....
http://www.4g61t.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10336		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  The Ethereal [ Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:48 am ]
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You bought your car in November 2004??
WOW! BTW, a seminar in time travels will be held two weeks ago. :D
Back to topic, I don't think the ignition is causing any of your problems. I'm sure having a look at the caps and rotor is a good idea, but won't change much for the pinging issue.
Personally, I'd dial BASE timing to 6 degs BTDC and try to lean out things a bit. If you ever run higher octane gas, you may still advance timing. I think running leaner will give you more power and better mileage than running richer but w/ more advance (assuming WOT here).
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Mon Aug 30, 2004 5:35 pm ]
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Ah yes, 2003 it was, did you notice how late I wrote that though; at least it was all still fresh in my mind though.

Think I should allow lots of unmetered air through the bypass holes? If you get my meaning, seems that metered air is what is causing the rich and lack of timing effect right now.
Author:  The Ethereal [ Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:54 am ]
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Exactly! Load is calculated by air mass. So a lower (counted by the ECU) air mass will bump up timing but at the same time decrease the amount of fuel injected. So you'll have to be careful. Little changes will have great effects w/ such low ON rating fuel you're using. I think a bit of fiddling around w/ the MAS will show good or at least sufficient results over time.
Uh... excuse my alcohol-damaged brains, but do you own a datalogger? :oops:
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ack my arch nemesis, the datalogger - haven't had any real reason until now to find something specifically wrong about the car so I guess I should start searching for stuff. I have researched lots on this topic and have all the schematics you could ever want, but need to set my priorities towards the new job for a little while. I pos up if I hook one up and get some results to show for it. For now the LED will have to do! :wink:
Author:  The Ethereal [ Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:27 am ]
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Uhm wait... I gues datalogging is pointless because you have no knock sensor to count knock sums...
Still, long term trim, injector duty cycle, spark advance and MAS frequency are interesting.
Do you have a DMM w/ freq counter you can hook up to the MAS? Should be less than 30 bucks and is always nice to have around.
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Unless someone -=and I won't say who=- can hook me up with a 1.8L ECU with knock sensor circuitry and a knock sensor that will screw into my USDM 1.5L block, then we'll be talking about fun and tuning.
I do have a multimeter but I have never experimented with the frequency function - what would denote that function. I gather that if I don't have the function it would be pretty obvious but finding one shouldn't be hard but how/where would it hook up -too lazy to search the manual but it's only on the other level of my house.
Author:  The Ethereal [ Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
Woah... Let me see... AH cool I found it:
Code:
MAS side connector pinout

4G15

    M			
---------
I 1 2 3 I
I 4 5 6 I
---------


4G61

     M
-----------
I 1 2 3 4 I
I - 6 7 8 I
-----------


	
         	    4G15 4G61	ECU	wire colour (MAS/ECU)

MAS output	    1	 2	10	green-blue/green-blue
+12V		    2    3	---	red or green-red??
+5V		    3	 4	23	green-red/green-red
GND		    4    6	24	green-black/green-black
Baro. press. sensor 5	 7  	16	green-yellow/green-yellow
Intake air temp	    6	 8	8	green-orange/green orange
Edit: Oh well it's pretty much f00ked up. :-? Hope it's still useful.
Edit2: ER WTF? I misread your post. :oops: You weren't looking for where to get the MAS output rather than finding out about the freq counter function. Usually "Hz" written on the selector switch denotes the freq counter function - if applicable. Well I'd really look into the manual. :)
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
So Eth, how come the connectors would look different in your diagram but are indeed interchangeagle as in plug and play?
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
So, my newest issue is the Check Engine Light turning on.

What I think is happening still with the unmodified larger bypass 12V 1.5L MAF still installed, is the computer trimming out the fuel as it modifies certain leaner values and I get a check engine light sometimes as I am driving along with no change in performance. I have yet to have it come on and stop and plug in my dash mounted LED which is just left with the two wires dangling next to the DLC. The light first flickered on while idling one day a week after the swap. The next occasion came up while driving on the highway at high vacuum low throttle cruise up around 90-100 KMH. The third such occasion was just tonight while travelling downtown; the light stayed on for 5 minutes this time and reset just as soon as I believe the computer modified the air/fuel trim values again.

These are still just my thoughts and I have yet to catch the CEL in action to diagnose what the ECU thinks of it all, but if the trend continues it might be a loop that the ECU isn't capable of getting past without inadvertently tripping the CEL; I may rule out the 1.5L MAF as a viable option for this upgrade path but only if modifying the unmetered bypass holes doesn't work to my advantage (less ping at stock timing) with additional power above and beyond the stock setup, and such that the CEL isn't related to this swap at all - but I wasn't having this before at all.

The saga continues ....
Author:  The Ethereal [ Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:01 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
So Eth, how come the connectors would look different in your diagram but are indeed interchangeagle as in plug and play?
Ahhhrggh that was the connector for the 61T/63T MAF! :oops:


Edit: Just read your other post. I'm afraid you really have to swap in the 4G37 MAF and run higher octane gas. Well that would always work. So that's to easy! :D
So the CEL comes on between tip-in and WOT. That's not good. If fumbling around doesn't change anything, I'm afraid there can't be done pretty much. OTOH, that CEL needn't be related to the MAS. It could be the TPS for instance.
When I still had my car, I always had a LED and jumper wires with me to read out error codes. As soon as the CEL illuminated, I pulled over and read the error code.
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Okay here is what I thought about and have come to a conclusion concerning;

1.8L setup
I wasn't liking the dialled back timing because the motor falls asleep when using the 1.8L setup with or without the 1.5L MAF in place of the 1.8L MAF. Sure enough, just as I had suspicions about the 1.8L setup with a 1.5 MAF installed being slower than a stock setup, I reinstalled the 1.5L components and things came back to life very quickly for the little engine. The only time I would get ping is when the throttle was just past tip in before applying the foot down further; continue to lean in to the throttle further and the ping was much reduced.

My best results to date have been using the 1.5L MAF with one the the two little bypass holes totally plugged from the factory (this is not one the cylindrical tubes that is already blocked for the 1.5L factory setup); the 1.5L MAF in question came from a Canadian model C10 body style car (Eagle Summit) that had the 12V motor but an older ECU that was different from the 89-92 12V I was used to seeing. That one hole being the only difference has proved to reduce ping thus far with 40+ inner city KM's and counting. The only difference with the two MAF's was that one had the plug in one of the small bypass holes and the other had a larger hole the size of the plug.

I was somewhat disappointed that I could not get the 1.8L setup to work more to my advantage and taking into account my view point for why I was doing this in the first place -

Reasons to try the 1.8L setup
I have a motor that has been warmed over by cleaning up all the metal to metal intake joints and matching the 1.8L TB to the intake.
Head was decked .006" of an inch so compression has been raised 1 or 2 decimal points (IMO).
Performance has improved overall and minimum 87 octane is sufficient enough to keep the motor from getting damaged over the long term - high test would only decrease the chances of the ping being a problem.
No significant timing changes were needed or applied to maintain instant benefit.
Only the TB is responsible to leaning things out a little bit.
A 1.5L MAF is now in the mix with smaller bypass holes - results TBD
Possible fun with an SAFC to dial out the ping at low throttle situation may be something to look into for humours sake.

I was not prepared to change to the 1.8L setup and then have to do some cam timing changes, timing at the distributor, play with the air bypass holes on the MAF, and then have to live with high test gasoline 90+ cents/litre (in Ontario) to make it work such that the motor wasn't going so lean that my fresh rebuild (or plain old motor) wouldn't burn up a piston top. Not the way to tune in my book because no matter the combination, bottom 87 octane could not be used to make the setup happy enough to not ping and knock like stones hitting your undercarriage (gross exaggeration for showing a relationship).

This was fun to try no matter what the outcome and can show what can be done to the little motor that so many people are running around with. I was only sorry to see that the ping couldn't be dialled out due to the 1.8 ECU timing differences that couldn't be easily overcome with low octance fuel and MAF bypass tuning. So, here I stay with the 1.5L setup and I will stay on the lookout for other fun possibilities to try and make the ping go away for good as ignition timing can't be played with enough, without having an Eprom ECU, or simply playing with a secondary air fuel controller.

Looks like the upgrade path that was blazed by business's such as RPW just to name one, are the best option to follow for those that have the 12V ECI with all the right drivetrain options. If I have to be happy with the motor for now, then the focus can go towards the rest of my tired suspension and the 93 Elantra brake setup that's sitting around waiting to be bolted in.

I came, I tried, I learned .... another day goes on. :wink:

Tim
Author:  The Ethereal [ Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:15 am ]
Post subject: 
Too bad it didn't work out. Nice work you did, though!
Author:  Sunchaser [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Performed 1.8L full setup swap on 1.5L crazy ping ....
This is some great info I have been looking way back for all kinds of 4g15 w 4g37 stuff and this swap and troubleshooting was very informative.

I only see socarteez in his signature that runs all the mods who and how else do people run the full set up?

First I will put the tb on and try to port match it, ill see how the car reacts.

should I keep my 4g15 ecu in with other mods

should I keep my 4g15 maf in with other mods

should I keep my 4g15 injectors in with other mods

What happens if I run the 4g37 tb and ecu thats it?
Author:  Flying Eagle [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Performed 1.8L full setup swap on 1.5L crazy ping ....
Talk about bringing back a post from the dead ...

A way of controlling the MAF signal could be the only other thing worthy of upgrading to, or running a megasquirt or similar setup to get rid of the mismatch timing maps/load cells.

My opinion is that the 4g15 didn't feel right, when I had it setup on the 4g37 components. There was the potential for more, with a better timing map setup. Can't do that with a base ECU. I could still be wrong about my impressions though. ...

This was so long ago, I'd almost forgotten which components I had used.

Not sure if this was installed on a motor where I had rebuilt the bottom end and cleaned the combustion chambers, or not.

I can't comment much more on this, other than to look back on what I wrote ... I've learned more since that time in my life, now automotive service technician's career. :rolleyes:
Author:  Sunchaser [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Performed 1.8L full setup swap on 1.5L crazy ping ....
Quote:
Talk about bringing back a post from the dead ...

A way of controlling the MAF signal could be the only other thing worthy of upgrading to, or running a megasquirt or similar setup to get rid of the mismatch timing maps/load cells.

My opinion is that the 4g15 didn't feel right, when I had it setup on the 4g37 components. There was the potential for more, with a better timing map setup. Can't do that with a base ECU. I could still be wrong about my impressions though. ...

This was so long ago, I'd almost forgotten which components I had used.

Not sure if this was installed on a motor where I had rebuilt the bottom end and cleaned the combustion chambers, or not.

I can't comment much more on this, other than to look back on what I wrote ... I've learned more since that time in my life, now automotive service technician's career. :rolleyes:

Im glad you kind of get a kick out of this old post its a great post and its SO old but very relavent to me.

which megasquirt would work? Im looking into them and trying to learn
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